Curse

Shriketalon · Jan 19, 2011, 09:05 PM // 21:05

The War in Kryta was extremely well done. Not only did it provide an excellent ending for a major plotline, connect the human storyline with the upcoming sequel, and provide interesting scenes and good dialogue, but it was extremely well crafted in terms of game mechanics. The multiple builds taking a nod from community works made for tenser, more dynamic fights, the repeatable content provided players with more things to do, and the combination of rare random rewards and incremental tokens that allowed the player to specifically choose a certain treasure was a great incentive to pursue shiny objects.

What I propose, then, is that it should be done more.

Yes, I know, more GW:Beyond content is upcoming. But specifically, I am referring to Krytifying older content, once-glorious areas that are now no longer the awesomeness they once were. The process is fairly simple; take and tweak community builds or alternative full bar setups, create multiple enemies of the same name running these builds, introduce a token system that drops at the appropriate rate, and add rewards that can be chosen by the player for the aforementioned tokens. The builds make the content interesting, and the rewards make it...well, rewarding.

For example....

---Sorrow's Furnace---
Unlike a good wine, this place did not get better with age. The 10k experience reward of Final Assault isn't worth repeating, the enemies only feature two or three skills on most of their bars, and the greens that were once so coveted aren't worthwhile in stats or skins anymore. SF was nice back in the day, but it just doesn't cut it anymore. Improving upon it, however, would be relatively simple.

-Give all the Stone Summit and Dredge multiple, dynamic builds
-Turn the Enslavement Stone and a new drop into tokens (give the E.Stone a different icon, so it doesn't look like a Torment gem)
-"Borrow" a few skins from Tolkano's Secret Stash for specific rewards
-Add an end chest that provides greens and rare materials
-Revise the final fight against the Bound Djinn to be a little more interesting

And that's all it needs. Better fights, better rewards, all utilizing existing content and repeatable quests to draw people back to an old favorite. Most of the design is already there, it just needs a nudge in the right direction to be actually worth our time and fun to play.

---Low Level Arenas, Challenge Missions, and Repeatables---
The campaign-based arenas have significant problems with the modern face of the game. The zones were designed for lower level players to fight together using only tutorial level abilities, but the access to top tier armor via alternate campaigns and skill books from your account have largely ruined the experience. Leaving the PvP to actual PvP zones, these areas nonetheless have great potential for another purpose: challenge missions.

Prophecies lacks any challenge missions at all, and Nightfall and Factions have no challenges occurring in the lower level areas. A simple plan, therefore, would be to convert these areas into new designs; hold off against waves of Charr hitting the wall, escort refugees through the Shiverpeaks, fight off clusters of Crimson Skull, and wage war against the pirate forces.

For these and the current Challenge Missions, switch rewards over to the token system of relevant areas; sufficiently high scores in Amatz Basin would yield Equipment Requisitions, battles in the Dakjah Inlet would provide Kournan Coins, Dragon's Throat rewards Imperial Commendations, etc. The same might be done for Hard Mode versions of repeatable quests.

Use the standard array of token collectors to provide better arrays of awards, allowing players to choose inscribable weapons from that region at higher tiers. That will not only encourage people to go through more side quests, but will circumvent the whole inscription-in-old-campaigns issue by providing both options.

---The Ruins of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings---
Time has not been kind to the Tombs. Being invaded by the chaotic forces of an angry god of madness and blasphemy will do that, but there's more to it. The greens the Darkness drops were once coveted, and the relatively bland fights against the same four types of enemies may have once been fun, but the content in the Tombs just doesn't cut it anymore. Now, it would be easy to say that just adding a chest would be enough, but there's another, more interesting option.

The PvP community has brought up the simple problem that Hero's Ascent is relatively lifeless. Reviving the zone would be no small matter and will take more than just increasing rewards, because it will also require increased access to the zone for new players. Which the Ruins could provide.

In the case of an HA revival effort, initiate the Restoration of the Ruins of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings (or RotTPK). Take the HA maps to restore the appearance of the Tomb, and have the players fight using PvP rules. Pit them against the new henchmen from the Henchmen Skillbar Contest, in premade teams of alternate setups and strategies, fighting in Annihilation, Relic Run, and King of the Hill scenarios. Sure, they'll be NPCs, but we have to start somewhere. Give a completing team a taste of the Hero's Ascent rewards, without the possibility of the rarest stuff dropping, and provide them with a point of fame if they haven't reached a certain rank of their title (to around rank three to five, perhaps. Not enough to display a monument, but enough to demonstrate you understand the basics).

You get the idea.

There's plenty of old content that would work just fine if it were given a little bit of tweaking. The War in Kryta proved how successful a good design can be from a mechanical standpoint, providing interesting things for players to do, worthy opponents to fight, and shiny objects to collect. The objects exist, because Tolkano's stash of PvP rewards has plenty of weapon skins that can't be found in PvE. The interesting things are already in the game, they just haven't aged well in the slightest. The builds exist, or the community has the time and energy to help design more. A little tweaking here, a little rework there, and plenty of old material can be improved and upgraded to provide a good trip down memory lane, as well as more fun things to do in the future.

-Makai- · Jan 19, 2011, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

For these and the current Challenge Missions, switch rewards over to the token system of relevant areas; sufficiently high scores in Amatz Basin would yield Equipment Requisitions, battles in the Dakjah Inlet would provide Kournan Coins, Dragon's Throat rewards Imperial Commendations, etc. The same might be done for Hard Mode versions of repeatable quests.

Use the standard array of token collectors to provide better arrays of awards, allowing players to choose inscribable weapons from that region at higher tiers. That will not only encourage people to go through more side quests, but will circumvent the whole inscription-in-old-campaigns issue by providing both options.

/signed all around, but this caught my eye. Repeatable quests that give trade contracts would be amazing.

jazilla · Jan 19, 2011, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I like your idea for SF. It really needs to be done and could be done relatively easily. ToPK is different. It needs an end chest as well. Problemis, they left ToPK without any area affects to hinder Rits/Dervs/Paras/or Sins so it has become(at times) a bot infested area for ecto farming on Assassins. If they weren't going to add a simple mechanic to waylay that, I highly doubt they will give it a face lift.

Boogz · Jan 19, 2011, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Loved this thread, excellent post indeed.

Sorrow's Furnace probably was an excellent place back then (I started playing b4 EotN came out), but now its simply terribly boring, only worth doing for the trophy at HoM, it needs some huge rework.

Challenge missions should get some love too, like mobs with new bars, they're simply boring right now.

Repeatable quests for trade contracts and such would be simply amazing, we'd finally have a viable way to get vabbian armor instead of spending money enough to buy FoW armor and more to get sapphires and rubies.

Overall, I /signed on everything here, I really hope that a community manager reads this post.

Kunder · Jan 19, 2011, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Why Anet hasn't been doing stuff like this I don't know. Surely rearranging a few skills on skill bars, modifying some spawns. plopping down a chest and adding a repeatable quest is much easier than all the WiK stuff they have been doing. SF and ToPK were among my fondest memories from early Guild Wars (along with the monk strike at THK). Its a real shame to see them go to waste.

Hobbs · Jan 20, 2011, 12:02 AM // 00:02

/signed for everything except Fame from the henchman HA. I think the idea is good, and there should be a way of showing you understand how HA works which at least proves you won't ask what the objective is on a Relic Run but I don't think fame is it. Also whatever reward you get should only be awarded if you each the henchman HoH. I mean beating AIs in simple Annihilation really shouldn't be that hard and also doesn't give any knowledge about the objective games.

As for your other suggestions, they're fantastic, some guildies and I recently spent a couple of hours in Sorrow's Furnace trying to get a specific green and it really brought back memories. The environment is brilliant, the quests are some of the best in Guild Wars (Dwarf Bundle Item anyone?) but nowadays the monsters just can't stand up with their skill bars. We'd agro entire rooms full of enemies and we took virtually no losses even when the party member with all the heroes went afk.

"WiKing" these areas and increasing the rewards could revitalise an area which, in my opinion, is one of the coolest around.

So enthusiastically /signed.

chuckles79 · Jan 20, 2011, 01:10 AM // 01:10

I actually find the idea of getting fame upto rank 3-5 is not a bad idea. Just make it very challenging to get and institute a mandatory cooloff period (only 2-3 points a day?)

It's late in the product's life-cycle to make huge changes, but it would be nice if they instituted in-game mechanics that would encourage people to do non-run of the mill things, like HA (or HA PvE?) and challenge missions.

Oh, nix the trade contract reward idea. It would kill what's become an exclusive armor. Instead have a high ruby/sapphire drop rate in a challenge area. That will encourage repeatable play, without guaranteeing a reward for "just being there".

*lemming* · Jan 20, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Good ideas all around, although the fame part most likely won't have the effect that you probably had in mind. If the situations don't resemble actual HA at all (you'd probably need custom AI, in addition to banning all PvE skills), a r3 from that won't be worth anything and pugs are just going to hitch up rank requirements.

Shriketalon · Jan 20, 2011, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Oh, nix the trade contract reward idea. It would kill what's become an exclusive armor. Instead have a high ruby/sapphire drop rate in a challenge area. That will encourage repeatable play, without guaranteeing a reward for "just being there".

One thing. There are no Vabbi Challenge Missions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Good ideas all around, although the fame part most likely won't have the effect that you probably had in mind. If the situations don't resemble actual HA at all (you'd probably need custom AI, in addition to banning all PvE skills), a r3 from that won't be worth anything and pugs are just going to hitch up rank requirements.

True enough, people will be people. Hmm...

What if, hypothetically, the PvE HA went all the way up to the Courtyard, at which point you had "won" the section? Thereafter, it would give you a minute to rest, then file you into a queue with any other PvE HA winners to fight within the Hall of (slightly lesser known) Heroes? A Hero's Ascent for Noobs, if you will.

That way, the non-elite Hero Ascent types are fighting equally non-elite HA types, with slightly lesser rewards in comparison to the true Hall, but easier means of entry. You learn the ropes of how it works, you gain rewards that make it worth your while, then you can choose to test yourself against other people like you for a glimpse at what the real HA is like. Meanwhile the main PvP HA has better rewards, enticing you to upgrade your game when you think you're ready.

MithranArkanere · Jan 20, 2011, 01:34 PM // 13:34

I'm all in for overhauling old content to make it more in line with the new.
The thing that I hated the most in GW is lack of retro-active changes, and I LOVE when they do that kind of thing, like the end-credits in Prophecies, or the update in old armors to insignia.

Missing HB · Jan 20, 2011, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Good ideas yes , but i would disagree with the HA part. The idea in itself is good , but it's leading to obvious problems .
- Everyone below max rank for it will for sure go there , and i know some high ranked ones who will do it as well because it would be for sure more fun than normal HA. Thus , half HA population would leave , and normal one would be more inactive than it is...

I think it would be better to in fact replace Zaishen elite with the idea you suggested.
The actual Zaishen elite arena is pretty ridiculous. You obviously can't go far with those 3 henchs + almost every player there is trapper + you can't use your own heroes...
People would need to take 7 of the new henchs they added and get along in a run against teams with those henchs .
There should also be only small maps where objective is to kill ( you know henchs will probably not be able to control a ghost or to run a relic + imagine the rez shrine abuse..) . 6 maps should be fine. Then , at the end of the run , player is rewarded with a chest which gives 1 random item from the game. It could be 1 elite tome , 1 fire staff , 1 normal tome , 1 flask , 1 crystalline , whatever.

Very good suggestions anyway ..

NerfHerder · Jan 20, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

/signed

I have had similar thoughts as well. But the fact that it takes so long and so much manpower just to WiKify Cantha or even put out a skill update, makes me wonder if this could ever be a reality. Reality aside, its still a great idea and the easiest way to add new content.

Xenomortis · Jan 20, 2011, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Updating Sorrow's Furnace I'm certainly in favour of.
Adding in some rewards shouldn't be too hard; as you said, Tolkano has a few things I'm sure he'll loan some.
Multiple, dynamic builds are hardly necessary; whilst nice it would add to the amount of required development time significantly.

The Challenge Mission type ideas I'm less sure on. Whilst I'd like to see this sort of thing, it's not generally something bothered with by players unless there are good rewards and the development time required would be high - there are other things I'd like to see.

I'm not sure what's meant by the ToPK thing; but I am currently waiting for my brain to finish thawing so I might read it again later.

MagicKnight · Jan 20, 2011, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I agree that challenge missions need some sprucing up. However, I think that the barren wasteland that is most of prophecies could use some challenge missions to liven the place up. It wouldn even requite new maps. I've got some ideas for prophecies challenge missions.

1. Defense of Rin - Starting at the back of the Nolani Academy area, you team up with King Adelbern and some of his best solders to fight off attacking charr. You've got to travel around the area clearing out as many charr camps in the time limit. Adelbern and co. aren't their normal weak selves, they'll resurrect themselves, WIK/EOTN style and have tolerable skill bars to boot. The charr will be all the advanced charr from EOTN and will occasionally include hunter beasts, devourer catapaults, charr effigies, and elder nephilim. Killing effigies will extend your time. To add extra challenge, Rebel Yell could be disabled.

2. Wizard's Folly - Taking place in a closed-off version of the wizard's tower in wizard's folly, you must hold back waves of enemies trying to invade the already weakened Ascalon. Alternating waves of pumped-up tengu, ice-style titans, and EOTN style stone summit dwarves attack for as long as you can hold out, with bosses every fourth wave. This mission can be accessed from an outpost attached to mineral springs (only available once you beat Prophecies).

3. Throne of Pellentia - Travel around the area where dunes of depair takes place, escorting lost souls to the ascension temple. You gain points for kiling bosses and successfully escorting spirits, with bosses also granting time boosts. One-way teleporters in the temple help you move around the map. Your party is padded up to eight by the addition of a ghostly hero and a ghostly priest (the kind who normally hang around res shrines in the desolation). The monsters will be a mixture of elementals and creatures (not counting undead) from both the crystal desrt and the desolation.

Finally, I think a few new dungeons would be nice. Even if they were just remixed versions of EOTN dungeons, it would still be something. Maybe all the "where do the Mursaat live?" speculation can be put to rest by adding in a "Hidden City of the Mursaat" dungeon with WIK-ified Mursaat and jades. Or reusing the catacombs map from Pre as a one-level dungeon in ascalon.

davehall · Jan 21, 2011, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicKnight

Finally, I think a few new dungeons would be nice. Even if they were just remixed versions of EOTN dungeons, it would still be something. Maybe all the "where do the Mursaat live?" speculation can be put to rest by adding in a "Hidden City of the Mursaat" dungeon with WIK-ified Mursaat and jades. Or reusing the catacombs map from Pre as a one-level dungeon in ascalon.

Actually for as long as I can remember I wanted to visit a post-searing catacombs, even if only passing through. Some of the views are breathtaking (in pre-searing) IMO. It would be nice to see something done with it in post-searing: like having Adelbern send Gwen, Keiran (and you) through the catacombs to Ebonhawke, in the next part of "Guild Wars Beyond". Or perhaps some GWB quest dealing with following Evennia into the catacombs, etc.